This essay explores the construction of identity in the online environment with a focus on professional identity on social networking sites such as LinkedIn. It does so by discussing the notion of identity being fluid, ever changing in nature and adaptable to its environment allowing individuals to present a certain identity depending on the context and audience. It further explores the use of social networking site Linkedin and the ways in which profile owners in the network employ impression management and self-presentation techniques to construct their profile to represent a professional identity to improve or better the perception of their professional character in the online environment. I
LinkedIn was founded in 2003 and is a professional social networking site that allows profile owners to present and promote their professional identities. The platform differs from other social networking sites such as Facebook that focusses more on social relations rather than expanding one’s network of professional connections (Rapanta & Cantoni, 2017). As 92% of recruiters use the social networking site LinkedIn to screen potential job applicants and infer personality characteristics (Van de Ven, Bogaert, Serlie, Brandt & Denissen, 2017), it is considered the most influential social networking platform for professional use (Rapanta & Cantoni, 2017). As such, profile owners must understand the need to present a profile that reflects a competent professional identity, rather than a social identity that would be more appropriate on an alternative social networking site such as Facebook. Constructing a profile that promotes an authentic, competent and professional identity requires a concerted effort and can be achieved through self-presentation and impression management tactics. Such tactics include using a profile picture that promotes professionalism, presenting information that highlights a profile owner’s skills and achievements, encouraging the endorsement of skills and achievements by other users in the network and connecting with other professionals in relevant fields. Employing effective self-presentation and impression management techniques ensures that a profile owner presents a positive professional identity, controls their professional brand and maintains their professional reputation. It also has the potential to increase employment opportunities for profile owners when used effectively as recruiters are able to locate the right candidate and connect job seekers with their sought after employment (Rapanta & Cantoni, 2017).
Before discussing the use of self-presentation and impression management techniques and the platform LinkedIn, it is first relevant to discuss the concept of identity and the ability to present multiple identities depending on the context. Yunn-Yu Sun argues that identity is flexible, ever changing in nature and can be constructed by an individual based on their needs to respond to different demands and expectations (Yunn-Yu Sun, 2012). As a result, people consciously and unconsciously represent themselves in a variety of ways and forms (Fitzpatrick, Lange and Radosh, 2016). The reason for this being that our identity often affects and determines how we understand and represent ourselves and is also often the basis of how we are recognised and subsequently treated by others (Yunn-Yu Sun, 2012). Kulich, de Lemus, Kosakowska-Berezecka and Lorenzi-Ciolodi argue that we have multiple identities that operate simultaneously. Such identities may be inherited identities based on factors like gender and race, achieved identities based on professional achievements or social identities based on interests and groups that we belong too (Kulich, de Lemus, Kosakowska-Berezecka and Lorenzi-Ciolodi, 2017). This is relevant to identity in real life as well as in the online mediated environment and people do not only seek to manage the perception of oneself face to face but also online, especially on social networking sites such as LinkedIn (Paliszkiewicz & Madra-Sawicka, 2016). The most significant difference in real life and online identity may lay in the level of control one has in their presentation online (Yunn-Yu Sun, 2012). Identity online tends to be more carefully crafted and is often constructed by choice to represent a specific identity providing a user with a greater degree of control over how they are projecting and being recognised by others (Yunn-Yu, 2012). This identity is proactively formed, standardised and presented voluntarily for social or professional purposes (Yunn-Yu Sun, 2012). The online identity has therefore become more fluid with different online identities being presented and established depending on the online community or network the user is participating in (Yunn-Yu Sun, 2012).
Social networking site LinkedIn is a platform focused on building business relationships and fostering interaction between professionals in similar industries and job seekers with recruiters. The platform is used to search for jobs, recommend other professionals using the platform and receive recommendations or endorsements from users in the network (Paliszkiewicz & Madra-Sawicka, 2016). It has more than 363 million members in over 200 countries earning its popularity among recruitment professionals and job seekers (Paliszkiewicz & Madra-Sawicka, 2016). It is a platform for both employers to promote themselves and job applicants to promote their work history and skills to leave a positive impression (Liu, 2018). LinkedIn has differentiated itself with profile owners being encouraged to tailor their profile to represent their professional selves (Kuo-Huie Chiang & Hung-Yue Suen, 2015). Liu considers LinkedIn to be similar to a comprehensive interview with no set time or place causing profile owners with no choice but to tailor their profile to perform professionally at all times with the audience being outside of their control (Liu, 2018). Recruiters are increasingly looking to job seekers’ profiles on social networking sites like LinkedIn to examine experience and skills and to infer personality characteristics from profile owners (Van de Ven, Bogaert, Serlie, Brandt & Denissen, 2017). Personality assessment is a commonly used tool in recruitment processes in the online and offline environment and recruiters are not only analysing a profile owners’ work history and skills to gauge potential job performance, but also personality characteristics presented online to ensure a person fits the job as well as the organisation. With LinkedIn being an influential recruitment tool, self-presentation and impression management online has therefore become vital and the need to maintain a positive and competent professional identity on the social networking site is essential to impress other professionals in similar fields as well as potential employers (Liu, 2018).
As the online environmental enables profile owners to promote different identities depending on the context, profile owners have great opportunity and choice on how they project and bearing on how they are recognised by others. This has led to profile owners developing processes and tactics in impression management to promote their professional selves on platforms like LinkedIn. Impression management is considered to be a conscious process in which people attempt to influence the perception of oneself and this is done by controlling and managing the information presented online, especially on social networking sites given the frequency in which users are engaging in social media (Paliszkiewicz & Madra-Sawicka, 2016). On social networking sites, the aim of impression management is to control the impression of others with the information, photos and videos you present and in the way in which you present this in social media (Paliszkiewicz & Madra-Sawicka, 2016). Profile owners thereby employ different impression management tactics to manage how they are being presented online depending on the platform and its audience. As LinkedIn is designed for professional use, the identity presented on this platform is targeted at other professionals and job recruiters and are careful as to how their profile is presented.
A LinkedIn profile includes information about the profile owner’s job title, detailed employment history, professional accomplishments and education (Paliszkiewicz & Madra-Sawicka, 2016) and acts as an online resume. Therefore, the more information a profile owner includes, the more likely a recruitment professional will gain an understanding of the individual’s personality, behaviour and authenticity (Paliszkiewicz & Madra-Sawicka, 2016). Including your relevant skills within your profile on the social networking site and including a detailed description of your skills, strengthens your professional identity and allows others within the network to “endorse” your skills. Endorsement of a profile owner’s skills is a public or official statement of support or approval with a profile owner’s reputation being built on the endorsement of others (Rapata & Cantoni, 2017). This virtual endorsement of your skills is considered a way of self-presentation through which professionals can brand themselves to other professionals in similar fields or to potential recruiters (Rapata & Cantoni, 2017). An additional function of the platform is its ability to connect with others within the network actively encouraging users to connect with colleagues or other professionals in a similar field. Connecting with others on the platform is also considered an act of self-presentation and is critical to impression management as the more users you connect with, the more you establish an authentic identity in the online environment (Rapata & Cantoni, 2017). The presentation of identity on social networking sites such as LinkedIn can therefore be the key to success or failure in terms of job seekers and potential recruiters (Paliszkiewicz & Madra-Sawicka, 2016).
Additionally, due to the virtuality of the online platform, all information that is presented by a profile owner is symbolic and meaningful and designed to cast the profile owner in a positive and professional light (Liu, 2018). Profile owners engage in self-presentation practices carefully selecting the information presented to not only present their professional self but to also increase employment opportunities, conduct business, establish professional relationships, express and promote their professional selves or to correct inaccurate impressions that colleagues or past employers may have of them (Paliszkiewicz & Madra-Sawicka, 2016). This includes the choice of profile pictures with research indicating that users who post a profile picture along with their LinkedIn profile are perceived as more socially attractive and more competent than users who do not post a picture (Paliszkiewicz & Madra-Sawicka, 2016). The picture selected for user’s profile on LinkedIn therefore tends to convey a message of professionalism and reliability (Liu, 2018) as personality characteristics can be inferred from the choice of clothing, style or pose from the image selected (Van de Ven, Bogaert, Serlie, Brandt & Denissen, 2017). Additionally, poor gramma or typographical errors can create a negative impression and lead to the assumption that the profile owner is incompetent or has poor to attention to detail (Paliszkiewicz & Madra-Sawicka, 2016). With 92% of recruiters using the social networking site LinkedIn to screen potential job applicants, managing this self-presentation in online networks is an integral part of our professional lives and profile owners must strategically present characteristics that they believe others will approve of while promoting an authentic and competent self (Paliszkiewicz & Madra-Sawicka, 2016).
As the notion of identity is flexible, ever changing in nature and can be constructed depending on the context and audience, different social networking sites enable us to present different identities such as our social identity or our professional identity. Self-presentation and impression management practices on social networking sites therefore have become a significant part of our online practice crafting our online identity in response to different demands, needs and audience. Platforms such as LinkedIn that are designed and dedicated to professionals and is focused on business relationships and interactions, offer people greater opportunity to present a professional idenity and appeal to potential recruiters. Having the ability to manage your online identity to promote a professional image, include a detailed work history and skills and having endorsements from other professional within your field not only gives you the opportunity to self-brand and strengthen your professional identity, it establishes credibility and authenticity for your professional identity. Employing impression management and self-presentation practices can as a result assist users with employment opportunities presenting a competent profile for potential positions. In turn, it can assist recruiters to find the right candidates for positions by reviewing a profile, determining suitability and competence as well as inferring personality characteristics to assess whether the candidate is qualified for the position and is a nice fit for the company.
Reference List
Fitzpatrick, C,. Lange, R,. & Radosh, J. (2016). A pilot investigation of Goffman’s self-presentation theory as applied LinkedIn. Retrieved from: https://responsejournal.net/issue/2016-11/article/pilot-investigation-goffman%E2%80%99s-self-presentation-theory-applied-linkedin
Kulich, C,. De Lemus, S,. Kosakowska-Berezecka, N,. & Lorenzi-Cioldi, F, (2017). Multiple identities management: Effects on (of) identification, attitudes, behavior and well-being. Frontiers in Psychology, 8(2258), 1-4. https://doi/ 10.3389/fpsyg.2017.02258
Kuo-Huie, J,. & Suen, H. (2015). Self-presentation and hiring recommendations in online communities: Lessons from LinkedIn. Computers in Human Behavior, 48, 516-524. https://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2015.02.017
Lui, S. (2018). Self-presentation on LinkedIn: From the perspective of mediation. Retrieved from https://blogs.commons.georgetown.edu/cctp-748-spring2018/2018/05/05/self-presentation-on-linkedin-from-the-perspective-of-mediation/
Paliszkiewicz, J,. & Madra-Sawicka, M. (2016). Impression management in social media: The example of LinkedIn. Management, 11(3), 203-212
Rapanta, C., & Cantoni, L. (2017). The LinkedIn endorsement game: Why and how professionals attribute skills to others. Business and Professional Communications Quarterly, 80(4), 443-459. https://doi/10.1177/2329490616677044
Van de Ven, N., & Bogaert, A. (2017). Personality perception based on LinkedIn profiles. Journal of Managerial Psychology, 32(6), 419-429. http://doi/10.1108/JMP-07-2016-0220
Yunn-Yu Sun, C. (2012). Something old, something new, something borrows, something blue: The construction of online identity and consequences. International Journal of People-Orientated Programming, 2(1), 53-73. https://doi/10.4018/ijpop.2012010103
Hi Krystal,
It was good to read a paper that focussed on LinkedIn, which as you point out is quite different to other SNS such as Facebook.
I agree with your statement that “identity online tends to be more carefully crafted and is often constructed by choice to represent a specific identity providing a user with a greater degree of control over how they are projecting and being recognised by others.” As I similarly tried to highlight in my paper, although we perform our identities in both offline and online contexts, the online space allows for a much greater degree of control around the identities we construct and present to our audiences.
With regards to “impression management tactics”, I think the features you mention such as being able to post a professional profile image, highlighting skills and achievements and including endorsements/recommendations do contribute to impression management. However I think there is much less room for deceptive and idealised self-presentations on LinkedIn than on other SNS such as Facebook. Your skills and work experience, for example, can be easily verified by a potential employer by contacting the relevant institution/employer. Your recommendations are backed up by displaying the referee’s name and their professional relationship to you next to their recommendation. Recommendations can also be easily backed up by a potential employer by phoning the referee and asking for a reference. In other words, even though you can “talk the talk” on LinkedIn to paint yourself in an amazing light, you’d better be able to back yourself up if you’re looking to be offered (and succeed in) the job you’re after.
You pointed out that recruiters are “increasingly looking to job seekers’ profiles on social networking sites like LinkedIn to examine experience and skills and to infer personality characteristics from profile owners” – I agree this is absolutely true. Moreover, employers are trying to figure out the bigger picture of a person’s offline identity through the online space. They’re not just starting and stopping at a potential candidate’s LinkedIn profile, but often scouting on Google for any public information they can find on the candidate, including their Facebook, Twitter and Instagram profile pages.
It would be interesting to read about any research that deals with the context collapses between SNS users’ professional LinkedIn pages and their non-professional Facebook/Twitter/Instagram pages. For example, how many employers have reported declining to interview a suitable candidate based on content they viewed on their Facebook page? Which particular types of content trigger a red flag for employers? And how does this red flag change according to the employer’s personal and organisational values?
Hi Lana
Thanks for taking the time to read my conference paper and your thoughtful response.
I would agree with your comments that it is harder to construct a false identity on LinkedIn then on other SNSs as the risk of being found out is much greater. For example, being known as a ‘fake’ on Facebook largely only loses credibility with friends and family where with LinkedIn, losing that credibility could cost you your future dream job. With that being said, I think that LinkedIn still permits you to manipulate information and exaggerate on truths. For example, exaggerating on responsibilities from a job a number of years ago is unlikely to transpire to a recruiter if it isn’t the position you are looking to leave. A user could also share ample content on a topic like say “innovation” or “start ups” but have no background in this area, yet the continuous sharing of the topic and engaging in it gives the impression that you do have experience in this.
So coming back to my earlier comment, I think you are correct that it is much harder to create a false identity on Linkedin as the stakes are different, I do think that there is room to present yourself more ideally or more qualified.
Thanks, Krystal
Hi Krystal,
Great essay on LinkedIn and impression management tactics. I think it is an interesting professional network with endless possibilities for recruiters and individuals who want to promote their professional profiles to a wider network of communities. It is interesting that I get regular connections requests from random people that I may not have come across from all over the globe. Many promote their side businesses in amongst their professional 9-5 job profile, which confuses me about what they are focused on.
I see Linkedin as an online Professional CV which everyone has access to. When people have a profile on Linkedin, they are there to be recognised. They are there to stand out against everyone else. I have an unproven theory that people are there because they are looking for a better opportunity then what they are doing now. What are your thoughts on this?
We only update our CV’s if we are ready to look for a new job. It stands to reason that a crisp and up to date professional profiles mean only one thing. People are looking! Why else would people be updating their information? I know that there is a premium tool within the platform that enables the statistical and analytical data to target potential Business to Business opportunities from a sales opportunity, so profile information of individuals assists this functionality.
If I was in HR I would be looking at the profile of my employees to see what is on there as the information would be invaluable in many ways. Maybe individual impressions count because other companies like to see the calibre of people that they may want to be working with?
Great work on the article again.
Cheers,
Luki
Hi Luke
Thanks for reading my paper!
I think that the point you raised regarding random people that you may not have come across requesting to connect with you on the platform is in fact that person employing an impression management technique. In building a large volume of connections, you create a more trusting profile for recruiters and others as it appears that you are being “endorsed” or “accepted” by others in whatever it is that you are promoting on your profile. An outsider does not know whether or not your connections are real or not.
As to your question whether I think that users on the platform are looking for a better opportunity. Potentially this may be the case, but I don’t think that the opportunity they are seeking is necessary a different job or a higher salary. I think for many, it is being respected and recognised as an “expert” in their field. This could lead to a better opportunity in that you are looked towards as a mentor in a consulting capacity or just by having a lot of followers on the platform who take advice from you and the content you post on the platform. An example to consider is CEO’s of major companies are professional influencers like Richard Branson who has an active profile on LinkedIn. It has almost become a professional duty due to success to prove your knowledge and share your learnings with aspiring professionals.
I have to agree with you Krystal and this goes some way further to the points that I made below about whether you would also consider the way that people use and engage with content and other people or companies on LinkedIn is a method of self presentation in itself.
I would go further to add that LinkedIn has become more that just a CV and that many people on there are not currently looking for jobs. It is now also a networking site for people to expand not only their networks but also their businesses and on behalf of there companies that they work for. For example, the corporate I work for actively encourages its staff to have LinkedIn profiles, it helps promote the company as a whole. A core group of us are also generating and uploading content, much of this either thought leadership on many of the topics that companies and people are interested in these days, from inclusion and diversity to climate change, or technology and it’s affect on the workforce. Our company posts frequently about what we are doing as a business in these areas to promote ourselves as a good company to work for so attracting talent but also to showcase our great people or our thought leaders within the business.
From a personal perspective, I follow many types of people from senior business leaders and firms across the globe, I am interested in their content and engage and sometimes interact with it. I also promote other articles that are of interest to me. All of this is in part a self presentation that I am building of me beyond just my profile/CV but also a great learning tool for engaging with the thought leaders of today or what are the latest trends and ideas. This all helps in expanding my own knowledge.
Beyond our CV and profile we use LinkedIn and interacting on it as a way to help increase or improve status and reputation but also a way to share knowledge and ideas. I have been directed to some great articles from there and also follow some fantastic people with great ideas. This in many ways is another great example of how Berners-Lee hoped we would use the web to share ideas and collaborate. I have seen collaboration come from people being connected on LinkedIn.
I’m sure this does overlook some of the pitfalls of it but I did want to share my thoughts on the extension of what LinkedIn can be as a social network site and networking tool.
Thanks Stephanie. Raising the point of companies using LinkedIn is a good example. I too follow many profiles out of interest rather than because of a professional connection.
It is a fascinating place LinkedIn as it is a more professional space. I think that it is still finding its feet in terms of how people use it. I have been on there for a long time as well so the information matches my CV somewhat. I perhaps don’t utilise it enough also. I just believe in connecting with large networks so people know what skills I may have to offer and I am always also open to connecting with people in general.
Hi Krystal
I really enjoyed reading your paper and your analysis of using self-presentation techniques is really well documented and detailed. Your paper has many similarities with my paper as I also looked at how the affordances of the Twitter platform can be used as a good reputation management tool for sportspeople, and in particular that Twitter gives an ideal opportunity for self-presentation. However unlike LinkedIn it allows for multiple self-presentations, or persona’s for want of a better word.
In your analysis you are right in saying that ‘Employing effective self-presentation and impression management techniques ensures that a profile owner presents a positive professional identity, controls their professional brand and maintains their professional reputation.’ LinkedIn unlike the other social media channels is more restrictive in the variety of self-presentations that you can deliver as users will really only want to present this professional identity to maintain their reputation. However users who have other social media accounts on FaceBook, Instagram or Twitter would need to be conscious of how they also present themselves on those sites to. As van Dijck proposes in his article ‘You have one identity’: performing the self on Facebook and LinkedIn, although we recognise we are not ‘one identity’ across our online channels as the social media channel owners would prefer us to be, when it comes to someone who may be looking for a job ‘constructing a consistent personal-professional image is quite important. Many users will try to synchronise their profiles on both sites’ (p.211).
Do we think this is really feasible given the amount of history that is going to be on those other social sites? Given the news this week of a party candidate for the Australian election having to step down due to some offensive posts he made seven years prior, it seems almost impossible to get away from our other online identities which might be damaging to our LinkedIn ones.
Although a little older now van Djick also highlights a survey done by Reppler in 2011 on hiring professionals and it indicated even then that ‘70% or recruiters…admitted they had rejected candidates on the basis of what they saw on social network sites, mostly because of what they perceived as unlikeable character traits or inappropriate behaviour’, I’m sure this is still the case, which Lana alludes to in her comments.
Besides the way you set up your profile and connect with others to establish a professional brand and identity, LinkedIn has now become more of a newsfeed and article promoting site. I’m really interested in how peoples self-presentation is consciously established through the posts they put on LinkedIn. Whereas previously it was really a space for establishing networks through connections, it seems now more about what and how you are promoting and in itself what this is saying about you and your identity. What is the content you are posting say about you? How is this affecting your impression management? The content posted would be very consciously thought out, people are not promoting or creating content that would detract from their professional image but to what level are other people perceiving your interactions on LinkedIn as a self-promotional tool? Are recruiters taking this into consideration and establishing a more rounded understanding of your personality, interests, likes etc. based on this.
I propose that these are opportunities to vary our self-presentations, bring more persona’s to this social media channel that the original and constrained profile setting space does not afford. There is more license in the content you post to provide more of your personality from different angles as you promote varying content, or comment on an article as well as the companies that you follow and groups that you are part of.
It would be great to know if you have any further thoughts on how LinkedIn has expanded into this realm.
sorry forgot to include the source
van Dijck, J. (2013). ‘You have one identity’: performing the self on Facebook and LinkedIn. Media, Culture & Society, 35(2), 199–215. https://doi.org/10.1177/0163443712468605
Hi Stephanie
Thanks for your considered response to my paper! I will definitely have a read over yours as I am interested in your views on self-reputation on social media.
You have raised some interesting points in regards to construction of identity on other social media platforms which are very valid. As someone who is fairly private on all social media platforms, I would consider the risk for myself quite low in this regards. However, as we know, it is hard to control what others share of you and tag you in. Therefore synchronising profiles to across channels to some extent may be necessary to ensure that representations on one platform don’t compromise another. The example of Facebook and LinkedIn is a good example in this regard. With that being said, I think this would just be monitoring your content on Facebook to ensure it is appropriate etc rather than say replacing your family photographs for self portraits.
The other point that I really like that you have raised is personas and I wish that I had factored this into my paper now. I think you are 100% right, LinkedIn profiles are very much these days about constructing professional personas. Thank you for raising this!
Thanks, Krystal
Hi Krystal
Interesting essay – what strikes me is the ability that social media sites like LinkedIn give people to make fake profiles in order to seek employment. I know that the lies will probably come out in the wash eventually, but what is actually stopping anyone from changing anything from minor details about a previous job to major lies about where they may have been employed? It kind-of relates to the ability to be anonymous or “anyone you want to be” online, creating fake personas to “fit in” or be the person that you wish you were in an offline setting. And ultimately what does that mean for job recruiters or employers? Interesting.
Hi Emily
Yes, social media platforms have definitely created an environment for fake profiles and false information to be presented.
I touched on this point briefly with Lana above. There is an element of risk that users are promoting false employment history such as places of work. I think though however if you work as a job recruiter, you would be aware of this risk more than anyone and therefore carry out other checks of potential employees. If a job recruiter was only relying on a LinkedIn profile and problems arise with employees they have connected with employers, that can hurt their professional reputation and endorsements etc on LinkedIn which I think is a risk they would be unwilling to take!
Hi Krystal,
As a long term user of LinkedIn I enjoyed reading your paper. I do think we tend to have identities for each context but they should not be too much apart. I have a Facebook identity for personal family and friends as well as a Facebook Identity and website for work. With LinkedIn I joined that before Facebook and so it has been very much skewed towards a work environment with a profile and skills that are all about pitching my capabilities. In the work that I do though for companies I tend to be engaged with HR professionals and while they will look at LinkedIn to match against a resume they are using Facebook and other social media networks to get a full 360 view of a person. I do think people should be more aware of their personal and professional identities and try to align them in some way as they are both being looked at by recruiters to find the ‘real’ person and if they will fit the culture of the company before even asking them to come in for an interview. One thing that stands out for me though is that LinkedIn is still a professional networking tool and I have seen people using it like Facebook, but they usually get very blunt feedback to keep it professional and not personal.
Hi Graeme
I am glad you enjoyed reading the paper!
I completely agree with you that while different platforms allow us to present different identities, users should be careful to ensure that these identities aren’t too different. The point that you raised regarding HR professionals looking over a number of platforms to gauge personality characteristics is a good point. I think that we also need to present a balanced identity to maintain authenticity which can be compromised on any platform (personal or professional) if the identities we present are too different.
Hi Krystal,
Your paper was a great read and it made me realise: LinkedIn allows users to display their identity online and share their profiles with many other users. The user is allowed to share their identity digitally – the benefits are endless. For example, If I am looking for a job, the employer or recruiter who is exploring online will look for identity who has a profile with a description, job title and a few other important points. therefore, it is important to update profiles in order to improve a professional profile.
However that said, It makes me also realise that anyone can create a profile with fake information…
Hi Amanda
Yes, it is important to keep your profile update to maximise its options to present work history and skills and so on. Especially if you are job seeking and want your profile to be considered by recruiters. To your second point, there is potential for false information to be presented. If you are interested in this point further, have a read of the comments with Lana and Emily above
Thanks